> Somewhere at the back of all this discussion is issue of inequality. I
> think it should be brought forward and looked at as the major cause of
> our woes rather than a symptom.
Surely inequality has to be seen as a symptom? It doesn't cause itself.
> The nettle to be grasped is that this insidious trend to greater
> inequality has to be controlled. In the past this has been done by
> progressive taxation and "socialist" institutions such as strong unions
> and the welfare state.
Is there evidence for this? Didn't the most steeply progressive taxes just
get evaded? Aren't the main beneficiaries of the welfare state the middle
classes? Didn't the unions traditionally neglect part time workers, and
other particularly exploited groups?
What about full employment and comprehensive education as reasons for
greater equality?
> When they were reduced in the Thatcher years,
The welfare state did not get reduced in the Thatcher years. Social
security spending shot up from a fifth to a third of government spending.
> low and behold inequality increased
It increased far more than the reasons you give can explain.
> and society got nastier.
> Bringing inequality down again is going to be a major struggle and is
> unlikly to be achieved just by patching up an ailing welfare
> state.
It might however be increased by better targetting of welfare spending, a
reduction in poverty traps, a minimum wage, a decent standard of
education for all, and most of all, a concerted effort to get people off
benefit and back into work.
> One practical measure would be for the government to set itself a target for
> inequality, just as it does for inflation. An acceptable index of inequality
> (such as the incomes gradient) would be needed.
Not a bad idea, but it's a way of measuring achievement, it won't achieve
anything in itself.
> I also think some form of Citizens Income should be high up on the Third Way
> agenda. As well as being a respectable, well developed idea, with cross party
> support,
Well-developed? By whom? Who are these supporters? Didn't even the
Lib Dems have to abandon it as unworkable?
> it could provide a mechanism for the redistribution of wealth with
> reduced interference in the lives of individuals by the state.
Handing out money regardless of need, regardless of effort, reduces state
interference? The priority for government should be to end social
exclusion not to subsidise an underclass, who won't even be expected to
look for work.
> I am sceptical about sustainable full imployment. I am an engineer developing
> improved products which I like to think of as a creation of wealth. I
> have seen at first hand strong pressures in industry not to employ
> people. I, and thousands of engineers like me, are beavering away
> developing new, more "efficient" ways of doing things and, top of the
> list for this increased efficiency, is to avoid the cost of human
> intervention. At the same time we are probably all working in
> undermanned teams and have seen competent colleagues made redundant for
> the sake of "efficiency". A Citizens Income would mean that
> wages, particularly for the lowest paid, would be reduced and this in turn
> would reduce the incentive to lay off workers.
As would having a successful economy. Something that would be seriously
jeopardised by spending a fortune on providing a citizen's income.
> I ask the ultimate question: are there any circumstances in which
> society is willing for some of its members to starve?
Yes. When there isn't enough food, springs to mind.
> If the answer is no, then every citizen is going to have an income
> somehow, so why not provide this by a better route?
I think expecting people to earn it, enabling them to get the opportunity
to earn it, and providing handouts only for those in genuine need, is a
better route than handing money out regardless.
Andrew Smith
It will get worse before it gets worse.
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